Vase with GA mark and brush decoration

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Vase with GA mark and brush decoration Empty Vase with GA mark and brush decoration

Post by Bernado Duckworthy August 10th 2023, 1:31 am

Hi,
I always thought this could be Japanese, only and I hasten to ad, for the similar iron pigment 'broken straw' type design, seen on Hamada Shoji pottery..(is this fair to say?)
or should I say nothing?
I'm just trying to join in a little bit...
and show I have done at least the slightest bit of research myself... Vase with GA mark and brush decoration 1f604

Please let me know if I should try again with picturing the mark.

Vase with GA mark and brush decoration Img_2105
Vase with GA mark and brush decoration Img_2104

Vase with GA mark and brush decoration Img_2107
Vase with GA mark and brush decoration Img_2106
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Post by NaomiM August 10th 2023, 1:42 am

Please add a photo of the base and a close up of the mark

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Post by Bernado Duckworthy August 10th 2023, 1:53 am

NaomiM wrote:Please add a photo of the base and a close up of the mark

Yes sory. I thought I had it came out very reflected, will upload tmrw.
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Post by studio-pots August 12th 2023, 10:56 am

I think it looks British but an image of the base is always essential as Naomi indicates.

Regarding your Tsubo suggestion. The actual translation of tsubo in Japanese is a unit of area approx.3.3 sq. metres. In pottery terms it is used in Japan to describe jars of this kind of area and above (front on view) and not a relatively small vase like this appears to be.

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Post by Bernado Duckworthy August 12th 2023, 1:39 pm

studio-pots wrote:I think it looks British but an image of the base is always essential as Naomi indicates.

Regarding your Tsubo suggestion. The actual translation of tsubo in Japanese is a unit of area approx.3.3 sq. metres. In pottery terms it is used in Japan to describe jars of this kind of area and above (front on view) and not a relatively small vase like this appears to be.

O.k. Could you just confirm this for me:
I thought the word 'Tsubo' also translated to Jar or vessel of any area.
There is also a translation to describe an area dedicated to a small garden, but of an unspecified size...
and a pressure point on the body.
Seems the common denominator would be around the term container there.

I think there is a few different Kanji's used for the different meanings.

(3.3sq meters sounds like quite a large area of pot to me.)

Thanks


Last edited by Bernado Duckworthy on August 12th 2023, 1:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Bernado Duckworthy August 12th 2023, 1:41 pm

Base:
Vase with GA mark and brush decoration Img_2127
The mark is quite faint, this was the best I could do:

Vase with GA mark and brush decoration Img_2126
Vase with GA mark and brush decoration Img_2125
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Post by studio-pots August 12th 2023, 3:00 pm

Bernado Duckworthy wrote:
studio-pots wrote:I think it looks British but an image of the base is always essential as Naomi indicates.

Regarding your Tsubo suggestion. The actual translation of tsubo in Japanese is a unit of area approx.3.3 sq. metres. In pottery terms it is used in Japan to describe jars of this kind of area and above (front on view) and not a relatively small vase like this appears to be.

O.k. Could you just confirm this for me:
I thought the word 'Tsubo' also translated to Jar or vessel of any area.
There is also a translation to describe an area dedicated to a small garden, but of an unspecified size...
and a pressure point on the body.
Seems the common denominator would be around the term container there.

I think there is a few different Kanji's used for the different meanings.

(3.3sq meters sounds like quite a large area of pot to me.)

Thanks

I have seen the word "tsubo" used correctly by Western potters, for example, Nancy Fuller. However, Nancy trained in Japan and therefore knows that it is actually used in Japan for certain very large jars that were traditionally used for storage. The words tsubo, yunomi (unomi), chawan and even Moon Jar are used by Western potters and collectors, often incorrectly, in order to add kudos and "up the price" of the item.

Your pot is not large; not the correct shape; not Japanese and so suggesting that it is a tsubo makes you look foolish.

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Post by Bernado Duckworthy August 12th 2023, 7:54 pm

studio-pots wrote:
Bernado Duckworthy wrote:
studio-pots wrote:I think it looks British but an image of the base is always essential as Naomi indicates.

Regarding your Tsubo suggestion. The actual translation of tsubo in Japanese is a unit of area approx.3.3 sq. metres. In pottery terms it is used in Japan to describe jars of this kind of area and above (front on view) and not a relatively small vase like this appears to be.

O.k. Could you just confirm this for me:
I thought the word 'Tsubo' also translated to Jar or vessel of any area.
There is also a translation to describe an area dedicated to a small garden, but of an unspecified size...
and a pressure point on the body.
Seems the common denominator would be around the term container there.

I think there is a few different Kanji's used for the different meanings.

(3.3sq meters sounds like quite a large area of pot to me.)

Thanks

I have seen the word "tsubo" used correctly by Western potters, for example, Nancy Fuller. However, Nancy trained in Japan and therefore knows that it is actually used in Japan for certain very large jars that were traditionally used for storage. The words tsubo, yunomi (unomi), chawan and even Moon Jar are used by Western potters and collectors, often incorrectly, in order to add kudos and "up the price" of the item.

Your pot is not large; not the correct shape; not Japanese and so suggesting that it is a tsubo makes you look foolish.

Well, thanks for confirming that. And as usual, thanks for the thorough explanation and background information.
Thanks too for confirming that my pot is not Japanese in origin.

Seen as the term is used often incorrectly by Western potters and collectors as you said,
(and from what I can see also by some galleries, auction houses and museums)
Do you think to say I was 'incorrect' may have sufficed?
No one likes to be told they look foolish.

(Maybe you could kindly suggest to Naomi that the title be changed so as to not mislead people.)
Sorry to be so much hard work as usual.

Also, while we're on the subject could you describe then, what would constitute a Tsubo shape?

And if you don't mind, if a western Potter for example were to produce a jar that fitted your description of a Tsubo, would they be entitled to refer to it as such? Or would that be incorrect?

Thanks in advance,  Vase with GA mark and brush decoration 1f605
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Post by studio-pots August 13th 2023, 10:52 am

Bernado Duckworthy wrote:

Well, thanks for confirming that. And as usual, thanks for the thorough explanation and background information.
Thanks too for confirming that my pot is not Japanese in origin.

Seen as the term is used often incorrectly by Western potters and collectors as you said,
(and from what I can see also by some galleries, auction houses and museums)
Do you think to say I was 'incorrect' may have sufficed?
No one likes to be told they look foolish.

(Maybe you could kindly suggest to Naomi that the title be changed so as to not mislead people.)
Sorry to be so much hard work as usual.

Also, while we're on the subject could you describe then, what would constitute a Tsubo shape?

And if you don't mind, if a western Potter for example were to produce a jar that fitted your description of a Tsubo, would they be entitled to refer to it as such? Or would that be incorrect?


Thanks in advance,  Vase with GA mark and brush decoration 1f605

My first post was telling you that your use of the word tsubo was incorrect and you then asked for an explanation, which I gave you. This might have suggested that it was foolish to suggest your vase was that but only so that you might not make a similar mistake again.

All Forum "Consultants" of which I am one have the ability to alter the titles and I have changed it to what I would have written had the pot been mine.

It is impossible to describe in words what constitutes a tsubo shape and size and, as it is not allowed for any of us to take images from the internet without permission and paste them here, I suggest you put in the following search, "antique Japanese storage tsubo". Of course, it will include pots that have been "enhanced by the description" for sale purposes, so concentrate on the ones in museums and with reputable dealers in Japanese ceramics.

If a potter makes something in the traditional manner and meets the traditional criteria then I have no problem with them calling it by the Japanese name. If your pot had been large and "had the look" then then I wouldn't have bothered about the description either. Also what I say isn't the law - I was just attempting to prevent you from being a con merchant like many people in the studio ceramics world whose views are more respected than my own.

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Post by Pugmill August 13th 2023, 11:33 am

Is the A of GA crossed or is it G merged with m?
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Post by Bernado Duckworthy August 13th 2023, 5:11 pm

Pugmill wrote:Is the A of GA crossed or is it G merged with m?

Actually, the A isn't crossed all the way through, so think it looks more like G merged with M .
Vase with GA mark and brush decoration 1f44d
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Post by Bernado Duckworthy August 13th 2023, 10:17 pm

studio-pots wrote:
Bernado Duckworthy wrote:

Well, thanks for confirming that. And as usual, thanks for the thorough explanation and background information.
Thanks too for confirming that my pot is not Japanese in origin.

Seen as the term is used often incorrectly by Western potters and collectors as you said,
(and from what I can see also by some galleries, auction houses and museums)
Do you think to say I was 'incorrect' may have sufficed?
No one likes to be told they look foolish.

(Maybe you could kindly suggest to Naomi that the title be changed so as to not mislead people.)
Sorry to be so much hard work as usual.

Also, while we're on the subject could you describe then, what would constitute a Tsubo shape?

And if you don't mind, if a western Potter for example were to produce a jar that fitted your description of a Tsubo, would they be entitled to refer to it as such? Or would that be incorrect?


Thanks in advance,  Vase with GA mark and brush decoration 1f605

My first post was telling you that your use of the word tsubo was incorrect and you then asked for an explanation, which I gave you. This might have suggested that it was foolish to suggest your vase was that but only so that you might not make a similar mistake again.

All Forum "Consultants" of which I am one have the ability to alter the titles and I have changed it to what I would have written had the pot been mine.

It is impossible to describe in words what constitutes a tsubo shape and size and, as it is not allowed for any of us to take images from the internet without permission and paste them here, I suggest you put in the following search, "antique Japanese storage tsubo". Of course, it will include pots that have been "enhanced by the description" for sale purposes, so concentrate on the ones in museums and with reputable dealers in Japanese ceramics.

If a potter makes something in the traditional manner and meets the traditional criteria then I have no problem with them calling it by the Japanese name. If your pot had been large and "had the look" then then I wouldn't have bothered about the description either. Also what I say isn't the law - I was just attempting to prevent you from being a con merchant like many people in the studio ceramics world whose views are more respected than my own.



I used the search term that you suggested and sure enough I see the type of container you are referring to.
I can accept and understand that 'Tsubo' should only be applied to this type of Large storage container.
I find the language fascinating and given the multiple meanings of the word, not all relating to size,
thought I'd ask the question. I certainly wasn't meaning to second guess you and thanks for helping me.
I appreciate the example of Nancy Fuller using the term correcty, having trained in Japan.

It's this type of first hand infomation, from real world experience, that you can't find easily on the internet,
and as per this example, where a meaning can become diluted, misconstrued.. and redifined.

I hope that this dialogue goes someway to keeping the incorrect term from being used. If not just on this forum Vase with GA mark and brush decoration 1f44c   Vase with GA mark and brush decoration 1f604

Although, as you say I can't paste examples here, I had seen some Hamada pots with similar shape,
one for eg. on 'Phil Rogers Pottery' described as Tsubo which measures 8.5" tall.
It makes me wonder if they consider this lower end of the "size limit" or if they're just being lazy with their descriptions.

With regards to my situation (I'm not looking to sell it anyway).
I might say though, there is a slight difference between ignorance and of course to knowingly mislead someone.
Obviously, to use the wrong title or search term to upsell something would be a con.
I know people now days, feel it's fair game to gain exposure as part of their marketing strategy. Vase with GA mark and brush decoration 1f60f
I do wonder if putting a small vase, if with specified dimensions, in the Tsubo catatgory would have a marked effect on price anyway?

Not asking you to necessarily expand on that, (but obviulsy feel free)
Cheers S.P   Vase with GA mark and brush decoration 1f609
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Post by NaomiM August 13th 2023, 10:36 pm

Try a pencil rubbing of the mark

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Post by studio-pots August 14th 2023, 12:24 am

Bernado Duckworthy wrote:

Although, as you say I can't paste examples here, I had seen some Hamada pots with similar shape,
one for eg. on 'Phil Rogers Pottery' described as Tsubo which measures 8.5" tall.
It makes me wonder if they consider this lower end of the "size limit" or if they're just being lazy with their descriptions.

Occasionally people have to be banned from this Forum. That doesn't occur very often but Phil Rogers was one person that was banned.


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Post by NaomiM August 14th 2023, 12:48 am

If you’ve found something similar online then post the link and we can click on it and see it too

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Post by PhilosophiaSB August 14th 2023, 8:07 am

are the decorations on it like campanula flowers aka bluebells or harebells ? i know this is not important but i wonder if i'm the only i see that
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Post by Bernado Duckworthy August 14th 2023, 12:42 pm

NaomiM wrote:Try a pencil rubbing of the mark

Unfortunately, the mark is so faint as to not offer any better of an impression from pencil rubbing.
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Post by Bernado Duckworthy August 14th 2023, 12:47 pm

studio-pots wrote:
Bernado Duckworthy wrote:

Although, as you say I can't paste examples here, I had seen some Hamada pots with similar shape,
one for eg. on 'Phil Rogers Pottery' described as Tsubo which measures 8.5" tall.
It makes me wonder if they consider this lower end of the "size limit" or if they're just being lazy with their descriptions.

Occasionally people have to be banned from this Forum. That doesn't occur very often but Phil Rogers was one person that was banned.


http://www.philrogerspottery.com/portfolio/h259-a-jar-or-tsubo-by-shoji-hamada/


Last edited by Bernado Duckworthy on August 14th 2023, 1:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Bernado Duckworthy August 14th 2023, 12:52 pm

NaomiM wrote:If you’ve found something similar online then post the link and we can click on it and see it too
Vase with GA mark and brush decoration 1f44d

I think he has a few pots described as Tsubo, the others in fairness are slightly larger. But given my understanding of the term    Vase with GA mark and brush decoration 1f609 Vase with GA mark and brush decoration 1f44c
Theyv'e been sloppy there to say the least.
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