Celtic pottery (Newlyn & Mousehole)

22 Crawford St. wrote:For me it's just how they decided to trim out of the mould. If you watch this video then you will see him doing it to a small cat. I'm assuming it was the same plaster mould techniques at Celtic?

It's also white earthenware. I wonder if it's suited to casting. There are also some interesting bits like I did not know they stick bits back on!

I've been thinking whether to respond to this with my thoughts and as no one else has, I will.
Good to see actual slip moulding in progress. I did see it in action at the Cobridge Stoneware open days, but that was a long time ago.

I do not believe that this explains the lack of a base on many Celtic cats and bulls. You'll notice in this clip he is 'only' clearing out the filling hole, so it's sharp. He's not actually cutting off the base and his cat still has a flat base.

But there are other reasons.
All the early Mousehole Cats and Bulls, have an open base. Most of the later Newlyn Cats and Bulls have the flat base with a hole (as in that clip). I have seen a few open based cats with a Newlyn label, but these could be very early change over or even old stock.

For the Bulls, there are some very subtle changes in shape and sharpness of features with most of the open based examples I have - which suggests a different mould to the 'closed' base ones. Also, I heard from one of Bills Sons that the very early ones were Press Moulded - which would require an open based mould.

With the Cats the earliest ones which have the more abstract black designs are slightly smaller in all proportions and all have an open base. I have one with the regular Celtic Pottery style on an open based cat, but this again is very slightly smaller. Most of the Newlyn open based cats with the regular Celtic designs are basically the same as the closed ones although I believe these Newlyn open based cats to be far less in number than the closed base ones. So I suspect they are either early in the Newlyn production or I guess they may have occasionally 'messed up' a base and so trimmed it down a little??
I don't think I've ever seen a Mousehole label on a closed base.

Another difference I've noticed is that the open based cats (that I have) are all glazed on the inside, whilst the 'closed' base ones aren't - why would they have done this differently depending on how they finished the base?
The bulls are a little different on this, as my 'closed base' bulls do seem to have a very thin and patchy covering of glaze on the inside.

As we know, when Celtic Pottery moved to Newlyn and Ev joined Maggie, he introduced a different glaze type/process. So perhaps a change in Mould type was also introduced?

For my money, the different bases are on the whole a sign of different production periods.
However, if anyone has an early Mousehole cat with this closed base, please do show.

A Mousehole period Dish, Signed by Bill.
I think it's a very early one - the white is very thin/pale and allows other colour to show through it.
There is virtually nothing left of the label and no surface to give any indication of what it once said.

denbydump wrote:Hi there. I always had a feeling this more monochrome palette was earlier.

I've been meaning to correct this speculation for some time, but kept forgetting.
But as it has now started to appear as fact in ebay listing (even saying mousehole time period), I thought I'd better do it before this becomes 'mainstream fact'.

This monochrome colour was just a colour that was done alongside the more colourful yellow (gold) and blue (turquoise).
As stated in the description for the FOLK range in this image.
I'm not certain of the date, but I believe it to be mid 70's (certainly 70's)

I always wondered what the black background colour was
Funny that they misspelt matte though

Has anyone ever seen, or heard of, a 2nd style of Celtic Pottery cat?

I hadn't, until I found this at an auction.
It was part of a job lot of cat ceramics and although it has a label, the pottery wasn't mentioned.
Thankfully the auction house did a very good job of packing!! I don't think it actually needed the double boxing I requested.

It's huge, at 32cm tall and weighs about 1350g. A regular Celtic cat can fit inside this thing.





It also has a dated label stuck inside. I'm guessing, that this may have been done by the person who bought it originally, maybe to remind themselves of when and where they bought it, or to remember the holiday they had? But the date is too precise, to be a guess by a later dealer - in my opinion.


Being an early Newlyn item, I wonder why it's so rare.
Could it have been just too large and so expensive and so didn't sell well?
Could it have been an exhibition piece?

I wonder if we'll ever know and if we'll ever see another?

A second or third-hand story from decades ago. When someone visited the
then already closed pottery, and managed to peer into the workshop, and
sat on the shelf were lots of unfinished blanks, including, as I remember
being told, some large cats, which nobody had ever seen before.

Thanks.
You replied whilst I was still editing to enter the photo's. I was having trouble with thumb nail images. I clicked enter instead of preview.

I thought I'd read about something being seen by someone looking through the window after it closed. But can't find the article. But at last, one has turned up!

Found it! The article was in the Antiques Info magazine around 1998/99 by
Joan Witham, who I knew quite well at the time.

Ah, is that where it is. I'll have to look again, as I was mostly looking through Collect It.
Thanks.
Shame she didn't take any photo's. I'd have loved to see what she could see.

EDIT - Finally found it. July/August edition 1998. Page 52.
The briefest of mentions on Celtic, but ......a fine, large plump cat......
Sounds like this one.

So if this one was bought in 1970 and others sat on the shelf until closure in 1984 - WHY aren't there more of them????

Milk jug and sugar, Celtic Pottery Newlyn ?
Not a design I’ve seen but colours all look right.

Yep it's 'Celtic Pottery'. But they are Mousehole items, not Newlyn. So they could possibly be before Celtic actually came into being and may have had a label for one of the Fishers (or both).
Not an uncommon early design.

My guess, would be that the jug was by Bill.

Thank you so much Celtic.
I’ll have a read up on the history of it all as I’m a bit unclear on dates and chronology. I remember that there are early pieces signed Fisher but I’ve never found one of these.
Cheers for your help

After years of searching, I've now found out the year Bill died - 2014.
I've found this Funeral Notice site which has an obituary published 27/11/2014 and says bill was 98yrs
https://funeral-notices.co.uk/notice/fisher/4189871

So William (Bill) Fisher - BORN c. 16th April 1916.  DIED Apr - Nov. 2014.

If anyone has a more precise date, please share it.

Curiously, this is the same year that Maggi died, 8/9th Jan 2014. (this says 8th Jan, but an earlier Canadian obituary said 9th Jan).
(although this site seems to have a typo in the obituary as it says 2013, but was published in 2014
https://funeral-notices.co.uk/notice/fisher/3034501

Maggi Fisher BORN 28th May 1935.  DIED 8/9th Jan. 2014.

Would it be worth a mod pinning this to the start of this thread, so people don't have to search for this info?

Chassyboy wrote:Hi ,
Thanks for the info. - hope I have got this right! Chassyboy

I now have more info regarding Bill's work after leaving Cornwall circa 1972

Bill had family in Watchet Somerset so he upped sticks and settled there.
With no kiln and very much on his uppers, Bill went to work designing elementary forms with limited detail that could be produced quickly and cheaply
The clay was inferior to the terracotta clay found in Cornwall, its gritty texture was not suitable for fine modelling so plaques like the ones above were produced and work was done on pared-down animal models, however, these are rarely found which points to a tiny number being made.
Bill did not own a kiln at this time so he undoubtedly fired these pieces in his friend's kilns as they owned potteries all over the South East tip of England

Any idea how long this lasted?
Obviously by the mid 80's (at the latest) he seems to have been back in Mousehole and based with Nigel Hallard.

The only clue is the number of  pieces made in that gritty, grey clay
The advantage over terracotta clay is strength whilst still malleable which  lends to sculpting larger pieces

Sorry Dan, there seems to be some confusion/mix ups in your answers.
You first say "The clay was inferior to the terracotta clay found in Cornwall, its gritty texture was not suitable for fine modelling"
Then in this 2nd reply, you say the larger number made in the gritty grey clay and it having advantages over the terracotta.

I'm guessing you mean that an inferior smooth grey clay is what was used in Somerset?

This is interesting, as I do have one item made from a grey clay. It's a ball of grey clay, which has been carved out to form a dragon. The size isn't large, but the detail is really good.

The vast majority of Bills work was in Terracotta made in Mousehole. As we've discussed privately, it seems the larger items are made from a gritty Terracotta due to it's strength (but they still have really good detail). Smaller items tend to be made from a smoother Terracotta. Although some smaller items are made from the gritty terracotta (perhaps left over from a larger item?).

We also know that he was making plaques/tiles made from Terracotta, whilst at Mousehole. So if it's the case that this grey clay was only used in somerset, we'd need to be careful about saying where/when something was made, because many of the them are over painted and you can't see what they are made of, unless there are some small chips exposing the clay used. Also, might he have also used Terracotta in somerset?

That badly cracked cow recently was grey clay. So I guess that would have been a somerset piece?

the gritty clay is superior for large sculpting as it will stay rigid when still damp and malleable
fine clay is better for smaller, more detailed modelling and throwing because it has a smooth quality.'

The Mousehole and Newlyn pieces were made of white and red earthenware clay which wasn't easily found in Somerset and the pieces we have documented as coming from there (so far) are all griity clay

I do have a large black bull with 64 incised into one foot though...

I'm now really confused what your saying about the clay used in Somerset.

The 64 Bull, makes perfect sense. That is when Bill was at his height (50's & 60's). The black is just colour over the Terracotta clay. I'm not sure if there is any reason behind those he coloured black and those he left in Terracotta? It seems random to me - I know unicorns, Lions and horse & rider all come in both black and Terracotta.

I'm saying the gritty clay is from Somerset and happens to be black
to me, the difference is obvious as those gnarly pieces made of gritty clay feel like they would take the skin off your hands!

That can't be the case.
All of the very largest pieces and I'd say his best work, are in a gritty terracotta.

Those large unicorns etc are from Bills early days. Why would Bill have suddenly started making really large heavy items when he was in his 60's?
The majority of bills large heavy work is from when Bill was in his 40's & 50's (1950's & 1960's) and had the strength to handle such work. There are examples of those large items bought by people in the 1960's in the Bill Fisher thread.
The black items also date from the 60's at least (and they are terracotta clay under the black). I'm not saying he didn't also paint things black in Somerset - but being black doesn't date things to Somerset.

It seems much of the trouble here, is that Bill rarely dated his work and so, with the exception of people who bought them new, we are having to make guesses about where and when - with very little to go on.

Of course, we could also be meaning different things by 'gritty'? I do have one small bull made from an exceptionally gritty terracotta, painted black. But I'd struggle to explain the difference between the normal early gritty terracotta and this one which I can feel is extra gritty.

Or, are you saying this Somerset clay is itself black, rather than being painted black, which many of Bills large gritty Terracotta figures are??
If so, how on earth do we tell, if they don't have a tiny chip to show the underlying clay colour

My best purchase this year so far is this Bill Fisher head that has been stuck in a garden for decades

Back to Celtic Pottery.

A dish commissioned for The Fisherman's Arms pub in Newlyn.
Probably painted by Maggi as it was a commission.

Celtic_Fan wrote:That can't be the case.
All of the very largest pieces and I'd say his best work, are in a gritty terracotta.

Those large unicorns etc are from Bills early days. Why would Bill have suddenly started making really large heavy items when he was in his 60's?
The majority of bills large heavy work is from when Bill was in his 40's & 50's (1950's & 1960's) and had the strength to handle such work. There are examples of those large items bought by people in the 1960's in the Bill Fisher thread.
The black items also date from the 60's at least (and they are terracotta clay under the black). I'm not saying he didn't also paint things black in Somerset - but being black doesn't date things to Somerset.

It seems much of the trouble here, is that Bill rarely dated his work and so, with the exception of people who bought them new, we are having to make guesses about where and when - with very little to go on.

Of course, we could also be meaning different things by 'gritty'? I do have one small bull made from an exceptionally gritty terracotta, painted black. But I'd struggle to explain the difference between the normal early gritty terracotta and this one which I can feel is extra gritty.

Or, are you saying this Somerset clay is itself black, rather than being painted black, which many of Bills large gritty Terracotta figures are??
If so, how on earth do we tell, if they don't have a tiny chip to show the underlying clay colour

I have now gone through all of my black Bill Fisher pieces, All have fine detail and all are modelled in terracotta then painted black! so Must have been 1960-70s and made from Cornish clay.
I don't own anything that has Somerset provenance so can't compare the clays