Bellarmine Jug

by **big ed** Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:18 pm

I bought a small stoneware Bellarmine Jug ( Bartmann Jug ) today for £35 , I am trying to find out about the medallion mark applied , does anyone have any idea as to where it may be from ? town , country Etc
Bellarmine Jug Malver22

by **big ed** Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:19 pm

19cm high

by **big ed** Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:20 pm

Base pic

by **big ed** Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:22 pm

There is some writing around the edge but very very faint

by **NaomiM** Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:29 pm

Doesn't look like your classic Bellarmine jug.
Might be worth getting hold of a copy of The Chronology of the Bellarmine Jug, by Anthony Thwaite, and see if there's an example in there.

by **NaomiM** Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:41 pm

Seal looks like a naive/imagined version of a coat of arms, rather than a copy of a real one. That might simply mean the owner was a rich commoner. I have my doubts that you'll be able to track it down.

by **big ed** Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:07 pm

Thanks Naomi , I think I have a lot of research to do on this one
http://maritimeasia.ws/maritimelanka/avondster/beardman.html
This link is just the start of many on the net , you may be right about the medallion ,but there are so many it's hard to say just yet , this smaller version is known as a drinking jug , the face is either Beardman , Bartmann or Bellarmine , the medallion is on the reverse side , no room on the front , not sure about the date as yet , they made copies in the 17th & 18th century of 16th century jugs but no reason as yet to think this hasn't got good age to it , nut brown glaze , may be 18th century I will try and find someone on the net who knows about them , Ta , Ed

by **big ed** Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:10 pm

by **NaomiM** Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:22 pm

Most of the faces on Bellarmine jugs seem to be impressed, were as your one seems to be a moulded and applied sprig. The same with the seal. Also the seal is on the back of the jug, below the handle, while most are on the front, below the face. Also the surface is smooth instead of the usual droplet-effect salt glaze.
Probably worth sending some photos to the Museum of London and ask them if they've seen anything similar.

by **big ed** Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:38 pm

Iv'e just seen some that have applied faces & medallions so that's ok , Iv'e also seen Seals at the side and front not many on the back , the surface is smooth as with early pieces and not all are salt glazed , I'm still try to learn more at this stage but allappears well maybe even rare who knows?, the only museums that have replied in the past have been Paisley and Dundee , the large ones don't give a monkeys and send out we are busy but will get back to you mails , but I'll give it a go anyway , enjoying finding out more about them just the same . Happy

by **big ed** Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:31 pm

http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/ceramics/pages/subsubcategory.asp?subsubcat_id=837&subsubcat_name=Frechen&cat_id=714

Just looking through this lot from the MOL , should finish in about a week Laughter

by **Potty** Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:02 pm

My gut feeling is thinking it's a later copy, but still has a decent bit of age to it.

Hope I'm wrong Happy

by **big ed** Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:21 pm

I am thinking along those lines as well Potty, but by later I am still thinking 18th century , now if it was the pre Bellarmine period where they were just the wild man with long beard and family crest that would be something special , hope museum replies .

by **Potty** Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:21 am

Can we see a larger pic of the base please ed?

by **big ed** Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:14 pm

It's concaved in not flat .

by **dantheman** Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:44 pm

looks antique to me

by **big ed** Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:06 pm

And me

by **NaomiM** Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:31 pm

dantheman wrote:looks antique to me

Possibly not modern, but not convinced it's earlier than 19th Century / turn of the 20th Century.

There's a modern one (1963) here

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ningarchive/4919170242/in/photostream/

by **NaomiM** Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:51 pm

The traditional ones I've found online don't have the 3 pad stilt marks on the base, which makes me think this is a later version.

by **big ed** Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:51 pm

NaomiM wrote:
dantheman wrote:looks antique to me
Possibly not modern, but not convinced it's earlier than 19th Century / turn of the 20th Century.

There's a modern one (1963) here

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ningarchive/4919170242/in/photostream/

I think that one looks modern ,mines looks and feels much older I'd be very surprised if it isn't 18th century looking at some attributes , but I'll have to wait and see Shrugs

by **Potty** Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:54 pm

I think I'm inclined to agree with Naomi, on the age anyway.

Looks to me like it's been made to appear older than it is, but I hopefully I'm wrong Happy

by **NaomiM** Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:01 pm

Potty wrote:
Looks to me like it's been made to appear older than it is, but I hopefully I'm wrong

I'm always suspicious when seals are simply pastiches. I'd take it as an indicator of more recent manufacture such as the Gothic revival of the late 19th Century.

by **big ed** Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:10 pm

I know what you mean , after some looking up however Iv'e read most medallions were only put on as an abstract decoration with little meaning it was common practice apparently , definitely not made to appear older imo , this jug is old no doubt about it , just how old I don't know , anyway what's a hundred years or so between friends Big Laughter

by **Potty** Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:51 am

Out of curiosity I just typed "reproduction Bellarmine jug" into Google images, if you have a look you'll see one fairly similar.

The base / handle / details / glaze finish just don't look quite right to me. Shrugs

by **NaomiM** Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:57 am

Not sure which one you're looking at Potty, but found a "VINTAGE BELLARMINE JUG JAR STUDIO POTTERY" that's identical on a finished irish ebay auction that didn't sell. But seller didn't know the age of it.

I don't think it's a reproduction, because it's not copying the traditional Bellarmine style. But, for the same reasons neither do I think you can really class it as a Bellarmine.

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