Bellarmine Jug
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Bellarmine Jug
I bought a small stoneware Bellarmine Jug ( Bartmann Jug ) today for £35 , I am trying to find out about the medallion mark applied , does anyone have any idea as to where it may be from ? town , country Etc
big ed- Number of posts : 11934
Age : 70
Location : UK
Registration date : 2008-03-22
Re: Bellarmine Jug
19cm high
big ed- Number of posts : 11934
Age : 70
Location : UK
Registration date : 2008-03-22
Re: Bellarmine Jug
Base pic
big ed- Number of posts : 11934
Age : 70
Location : UK
Registration date : 2008-03-22
Re: Bellarmine Jug
There is some writing around the edge but very very faint
big ed- Number of posts : 11934
Age : 70
Location : UK
Registration date : 2008-03-22
Re: Bellarmine Jug
Doesn't look like your classic Bellarmine jug.
Might be worth getting hold of a copy of The Chronology of the Bellarmine Jug, by Anthony Thwaite, and see if there's an example in there.
Might be worth getting hold of a copy of The Chronology of the Bellarmine Jug, by Anthony Thwaite, and see if there's an example in there.
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Re: Bellarmine Jug
Seal looks like a naive/imagined version of a coat of arms, rather than a copy of a real one. That might simply mean the owner was a rich commoner. I have my doubts that you'll be able to track it down.
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Re: Bellarmine Jug
Thanks Naomi , I think I have a lot of research to do on this one
http://maritimeasia.ws/maritimelanka/avondster/beardman.html
This link is just the start of many on the net , you may be right about the medallion ,but there are so many it's hard to say just yet , this smaller version is known as a drinking jug , the face is either Beardman , Bartmann or Bellarmine , the medallion is on the reverse side , no room on the front , not sure about the date as yet , they made copies in the 17th & 18th century of 16th century jugs but no reason as yet to think this hasn't got good age to it , nut brown glaze , may be 18th century I will try and find someone on the net who knows about them , Ta , Ed
http://maritimeasia.ws/maritimelanka/avondster/beardman.html
This link is just the start of many on the net , you may be right about the medallion ,but there are so many it's hard to say just yet , this smaller version is known as a drinking jug , the face is either Beardman , Bartmann or Bellarmine , the medallion is on the reverse side , no room on the front , not sure about the date as yet , they made copies in the 17th & 18th century of 16th century jugs but no reason as yet to think this hasn't got good age to it , nut brown glaze , may be 18th century I will try and find someone on the net who knows about them , Ta , Ed
big ed- Number of posts : 11934
Age : 70
Location : UK
Registration date : 2008-03-22
Re: Bellarmine Jug
Most of the faces on Bellarmine jugs seem to be impressed, were as your one seems to be a moulded and applied sprig. The same with the seal. Also the seal is on the back of the jug, below the handle, while most are on the front, below the face. Also the surface is smooth instead of the usual droplet-effect salt glaze.
Probably worth sending some photos to the Museum of London and ask them if they've seen anything similar.
Probably worth sending some photos to the Museum of London and ask them if they've seen anything similar.
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Re: Bellarmine Jug
Iv'e just seen some that have applied faces & medallions so that's ok , Iv'e also seen Seals at the side and front not many on the back , the surface is smooth as with early pieces and not all are salt glazed , I'm still try to learn more at this stage but allappears well maybe even rare who knows?, the only museums that have replied in the past have been Paisley and Dundee , the large ones don't give a monkeys and send out we are busy but will get back to you mails , but I'll give it a go anyway , enjoying finding out more about them just the same .
big ed- Number of posts : 11934
Age : 70
Location : UK
Registration date : 2008-03-22
Re: Bellarmine Jug
http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/ceramics/pages/subsubcategory.asp?subsubcat_id=837&subsubcat_name=Frechen&cat_id=714
Just looking through this lot from the MOL , should finish in about a week
Just looking through this lot from the MOL , should finish in about a week
big ed- Number of posts : 11934
Age : 70
Location : UK
Registration date : 2008-03-22
Re: Bellarmine Jug
My gut feeling is thinking it's a later copy, but still has a decent bit of age to it.
Hope I'm wrong
Hope I'm wrong
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lozzy68 wrote:I Had A Feeling It Wasn't A gnome As Studio-Pots Said There Is No Hat On Him
NaomiM wrote:I'm watching other Willies, so maybe I'll get one at some point.
studio-pots wrote:I know my raku
Potty- Number of posts : 3667
Location : Midlands
Registration date : 2010-09-28
Re: Bellarmine Jug
I am thinking along those lines as well Potty, but by later I am still thinking 18th century , now if it was the pre Bellarmine period where they were just the wild man with long beard and family crest that would be something special , hope museum replies .
big ed- Number of posts : 11934
Age : 70
Location : UK
Registration date : 2008-03-22
Re: Bellarmine Jug
Can we see a larger pic of the base please ed?
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lozzy68 wrote:I Had A Feeling It Wasn't A gnome As Studio-Pots Said There Is No Hat On Him
NaomiM wrote:I'm watching other Willies, so maybe I'll get one at some point.
studio-pots wrote:I know my raku
Potty- Number of posts : 3667
Location : Midlands
Registration date : 2010-09-28
Re: Bellarmine Jug
It's concaved in not flat .
big ed- Number of posts : 11934
Age : 70
Location : UK
Registration date : 2008-03-22
Re: Bellarmine Jug
looks antique to me
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dantheman- Consultant
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Location : Lincolnshire ( the veg patch of England)
Registration date : 2008-02-03
Re: Bellarmine Jug
And me
big ed- Number of posts : 11934
Age : 70
Location : UK
Registration date : 2008-03-22
Re: Bellarmine Jug
Possibly not modern, but not convinced it's earlier than 19th Century / turn of the 20th Century.dantheman wrote:looks antique to me
There's a modern one (1963) here
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ningarchive/4919170242/in/photostream/
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Re: Bellarmine Jug
The traditional ones I've found online don't have the 3 pad stilt marks on the base, which makes me think this is a later version.
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Re: Bellarmine Jug
I think that one looks modern ,mines looks and feels much older I'd be very surprised if it isn't 18th century looking at some attributes , but I'll have to wait and seeNaomiM wrote:Possibly not modern, but not convinced it's earlier than 19th Century / turn of the 20th Century.dantheman wrote:looks antique to me
There's a modern one (1963) here
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ningarchive/4919170242/in/photostream/
big ed- Number of posts : 11934
Age : 70
Location : UK
Registration date : 2008-03-22
Re: Bellarmine Jug
I think I'm inclined to agree with Naomi, on the age anyway.
Looks to me like it's been made to appear older than it is, but I hopefully I'm wrong
Looks to me like it's been made to appear older than it is, but I hopefully I'm wrong
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lozzy68 wrote:I Had A Feeling It Wasn't A gnome As Studio-Pots Said There Is No Hat On Him
NaomiM wrote:I'm watching other Willies, so maybe I'll get one at some point.
studio-pots wrote:I know my raku
Potty- Number of posts : 3667
Location : Midlands
Registration date : 2010-09-28
Re: Bellarmine Jug
I'm always suspicious when seals are simply pastiches. I'd take it as an indicator of more recent manufacture such as the Gothic revival of the late 19th Century.Potty wrote:
Looks to me like it's been made to appear older than it is, but I hopefully I'm wrong
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Re: Bellarmine Jug
I know what you mean , after some looking up however Iv'e read most medallions were only put on as an abstract decoration with little meaning it was common practice apparently , definitely not made to appear older imo , this jug is old no doubt about it , just how old I don't know , anyway what's a hundred years or so between friends
big ed- Number of posts : 11934
Age : 70
Location : UK
Registration date : 2008-03-22
Re: Bellarmine Jug
Out of curiosity I just typed "reproduction Bellarmine jug" into Google images, if you have a look you'll see one fairly similar.
The base / handle / details / glaze finish just don't look quite right to me.
The base / handle / details / glaze finish just don't look quite right to me.
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lozzy68 wrote:I Had A Feeling It Wasn't A gnome As Studio-Pots Said There Is No Hat On Him
NaomiM wrote:I'm watching other Willies, so maybe I'll get one at some point.
studio-pots wrote:I know my raku
Potty- Number of posts : 3667
Location : Midlands
Registration date : 2010-09-28
Re: Bellarmine Jug
Not sure which one you're looking at Potty, but found a "VINTAGE BELLARMINE JUG JAR STUDIO POTTERY" that's identical on a finished irish ebay auction that didn't sell. But seller didn't know the age of it.
I don't think it's a reproduction, because it's not copying the traditional Bellarmine style. But, for the same reasons neither do I think you can really class it as a Bellarmine.
I don't think it's a reproduction, because it's not copying the traditional Bellarmine style. But, for the same reasons neither do I think you can really class it as a Bellarmine.
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