Potential Fantoni fakes from the Far East (renamed thread)

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Potential Fantoni fakes from the Far East (renamed thread)

Post by big ed on August 27th 2009, 11:38 am

http://www.marcellofantoni.it/inglese/biografia.htm



Marcello Fantoni, small pin tray.
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Re: Potential Fantoni fakes from the Far East (renamed thread)

Post by big ed on August 27th 2009, 11:39 am



Biography link above.
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Re: Potential Fantoni fakes from the Far East (renamed thread)

Post by Walter Del Pellegrino on September 1st 2009, 1:41 am

I don't want to be controversial but I am skeptical about the logo and the style of the piece. The symbol is somewhat crude and lacking the proper shape if it were a Fantoni. It is unsigned but I have seen examples without the signature, though rarely. The piece has a distinctive "San Marino" look to it that one would not normally seen in Fantoni's pottery.

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Re: Potential Fantoni fakes from the Far East (renamed thread)

Post by big ed on September 1st 2009, 7:27 am

Hi Walter, I know you know much more aboutthese than me ,however this is a very small piece 4"x3", the mark corresponds with thye Fantoni mark in the book pottery and porcelain marks by J.P.Cushion in collaboration with W.B.Honey, page 217, I have seen a few marino style pieces signed fantoni, so that is not unusal, look at these.http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fantoni-Mid-Century-Modern-Italy-Ceramic-Vase-Raymor_W0QQitemZ360028065330QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item53d3584e32&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Italian-pottery-bowl-by-Fantoni-Circa-1950s_W0QQitemZ280391197681QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_PotteryPorcelain_Glass_PotteryPorcelain_China_SM?hash=item41489e23f1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
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Re: Potential Fantoni fakes from the Far East (renamed thread)

Post by big ed on September 1st 2009, 7:30 am

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fantoni-Mid-Century-Modern-Italy-Ceramic-Vase-Raymor_W0QQitemZ360028065330QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item53d3584e32&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
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Re: Potential Fantoni fakes from the Far East (renamed thread)

Post by Pip on September 1st 2009, 8:32 am

I've had pieces with an extremely similar lady design to the front (even the same hat) one unmarked and the other with the leather covering you so often see with these pieces. I had assumed them to be San Marino production - Ed's is quite clearly marked however. Walter, do you think the mark on Ed's is a fake?

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Re: Potential Fantoni fakes from the Far East (renamed thread)

Post by big ed on September 1st 2009, 10:33 am

I wonder Why anyone would fake a little thing like this , it only cost 5, I think I have seen them signed fantoni on the front as well , :con2:
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Re: Potential Fantoni fakes from the Far East (renamed thread)

Post by Walter Del Pellegrino on September 1st 2009, 12:22 pm

Here are several more that bear the Fantoni name and logo in the same manner as yours. All are in a style made famous by the artists of San Marino. These are not, in fact, by Marcello Fantoni
http://www.msdecorative.com/store/furniture_item_detail.php?id=327072

The next link shows more than 100 examples of true Fantoni works. None are in the San Marino style.
http://www.marcellofantoni.it/inglese/engindex.htm

This is a correct mark for Fantoni


The number of fakes out there is astronomical. Again, I don't want to be controversial and certainly I am not expert on the ceramics of Fantoni. I have only owned two or three examples of his work over the years. This is simply my opinion, based on what I have seen of his work and his marks through time.

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Re: Potential Fantoni fakes from the Far East (renamed thread)

Post by big ed on September 1st 2009, 12:48 pm

Thanks Walter ,that was very interesting , confusing also, but interesting Laughter , so who is putting all these fantoni marks on the san marino stuff ? assuming they are san marino ,because they have their marks also.
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Re: Potential Fantoni fakes from the Far East (renamed thread)

Post by Walter Del Pellegrino on September 1st 2009, 12:56 pm

Most are coming out of China, although lately a number of the fake San Marino, or San Marino inspired pieces, are now coming from some the Eastern European countries including Bulgaria, Albania and the Russian Federation

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Re: Potential Fantoni fakes from the Far East (renamed thread)

Post by Pip on September 1st 2009, 2:21 pm

pfft more bliddy fakes! Walter - do you think it's likely that genuine production from San Marino could be being falsely signed 'Fantoni' - in the same way that we're seeing pieces of studio pottery that bear a passing resemblance to Troika popping up regularly on eBay with spurious Troika signatures marker pen'd to the bases?

Because to my eye Ed's piece looks too good to be a repro from the Far East and/or Eastern Europe - I've had several pieces like this with seriously worn and aged leather coverings that I would be reluctant to believe were not San Marino production.

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Re: Potential Fantoni fakes from the Far East (renamed thread)

Post by Walter Del Pellegrino on September 1st 2009, 3:13 pm

Applying fake signatures to original unmarked pieces is certainly taking place but on a much smaller scale and usually by an individual sitting at their kitchen table trying their hand at forgery on one or two pieces that they put up for sale on ebay.
The kind of fakery shown by all the examples cited here in this discussion is being done on a grand scale. Do not underestimate the skill and ability of some these forgers. I have seen many examples that have originally fooled me until close inspection.
I have two ways of detecting a fake but I have to physically handle the piece. Both methods are connected. The first is the weight of the piece. For the most part, Italian pieces are heavy and robust in comparison to modern fakes. If you have handled true San Marino pieces and then picked up a modern fake you will immediately detect the obvious difference in weight.
The second is to try to find a chip at the piece and look at the clay. The fake piece will reveal a pure white and milky smooth appearance. Look again at the chips on the base of the vase in the link I provided earlier.
Here it is again:
http://www.msdecorative.com/store/furniture_item_detail.php?id=327072

The weight of the piece is important because the lighter the piece is the less it will cost to ship across the ocean from China. If the manufacturer can cut the weight of a single piece by a quarter of a pound and he is shipping a container with ten thousand pieces he saves a shipping weight 2,500 pounds that greatly reduces his shipping cost. And how does the manufacturer cut that weight? By using a lightweight, inexpensive, clay slurry in his molds to make the pieces.
In most cases, Italian made pieces will have a natural grey or reddish tint to the clay and will be somewhat granulated and far less refined the white slurry used by Asian manufacturers today.

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Re: Potential Fantoni fakes from the Far East (renamed thread)

Post by Pip on September 1st 2009, 3:54 pm

Thanks for that - fortunately I've not come across any with the spurious signatures (yet) - guess it's a matter of time though.

Ed, since this is your thread and we've been hot on the trail of fakers recently (Lalique, Troika) would you mind if I renamed this thread and moved it to the Pottery Discussions thread where we could continue it.

It would seem that our idea of compiling a database of forged pottery & glass signatures is becoming even more necessary now.

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Re: Potential Fantoni fakes from the Far East (renamed thread)

Post by Pip on September 1st 2009, 3:59 pm

Oh and to confirm, and using your methods of detection Walther it would appear that Ed's pot at the top of this thread is San Marino production (see his base photo for the clay colour which is a reddy brown) that has had the Fantoni signature/mark applied at a later stage with the intent to deceive - rather than an out and out fake from the Far East.

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Re: Potential Fantoni fakes from the Far East (renamed thread)

Post by big ed on September 1st 2009, 5:54 pm

Pip wrote:Thanks for that - fortunately I've not come across any with the spurious signatures (yet) - guess it's a matter of time though.

Ed, since this is your thread and we've been hot on the trail of fakers recently (Lalique, Troika) would you mind if I renamed this thread and moved it to the Pottery Discussions thread where we could continue it.

It would seem that our idea of compiling a database of forged pottery & glass signatures is becoming even more necessary now.

Go ahead pip, no problem,that was a good education , thanks walter Shrugs
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Re: Potential Fantoni fakes from the Far East (renamed thread)

Post by big ed on March 15th 2010, 8:47 pm

Walter Del Pellegrino wrote:Here are several more that bear the Fantoni name and logo in the same manner as yours. All are in a style made famous by the artists of San Marino. These are not, in fact, by Marcello Fantoni
http://www.msdecorative.com/store/furniture_item_detail.php?id=327072

The next link shows more than 100 examples of true Fantoni works. None are in the San Marino style.
http://www.marcellofantoni.it/inglese/engindex.htm

This is a correct mark for Fantoni


The number of fakes out there is astronomical. Again, I don't want to be controversial and certainly I am not expert on the ceramics of Fantoni. I have only owned two or three examples of his work over the years. This is simply my opinion, based on what I have seen of his work and his marks through time.
I have just received my Millers guide 2010 on page 75 is a vase valued at 300-500 and by Fantoni , only problem is if you click on the link by walter it's almost identical to the red vase on the right of picture which is san marino and a huge difference oops
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Re: Potential Fantoni fakes from the Far East (renamed thread)

Post by Tigerchips Meowseum on March 17th 2010, 2:51 pm

There seems to be a large scratch over the painted mark, maybe someone else thought it was a fake? Or perhaps they tried to make it look as though their was some age to it?
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Re: Potential Fantoni fakes from the Far East (renamed thread)

Post by big ed on March 17th 2010, 3:39 pm

I am talikng about the ms decorative link above
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Re: Potential Fantoni fakes from the Far East (renamed thread)

Post by dantheman on July 8th 2012, 8:57 am

bump

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Re: Potential Fantoni fakes from the Far East (renamed thread)

Post by MirnaMinkoff on January 22nd 2013, 12:07 am

So I'm a little confused to say the least. It would be great if examples of confirmed fakes or misattributions could be posted.

As for these litte trays, many by San Marino artists, did Fantoni produce any similar works? I have seen similar trays actually signed Fantoni on the front in the bottom right done in glaze - as well as on the typical sig on the back. Would this have been a fake too? The double signature, on both front and back, seems like it would either legit or a fake trying too hard.

I'm not sure how many fakes have entered the American market in comparison to the UK/ Europe.
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Re: Potential Fantoni fakes from the Far East (renamed thread)

Post by agrendan on April 12th 2013, 10:15 am

So from what I have read here this vase is to be considered as a fake? Frustrated
Signed on front and in the bottom with symbol and Fantoni signature italy.

https://i.servimg.com/u/f74/18/23/90/99/vase11.jpg
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Re: Potential Fantoni fakes from the Far East (renamed thread)

Post by MirnaMinkoff on April 12th 2013, 3:16 pm

Fantoni used variations on his signature, the symbol doesn't have to be present. Here's one on the back of a cat shelf-sitter he did for Raymor. (To be clear the signature below is an authentic piece)



Here are the shelf-sitters.
http://modernarmada.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/two-fantoni-cats.jpg

However, I'm very leery of any of the little "plates" and dishes that seem to be everywhere. (I do wonder why the leather covered backs were so popular.)

Fantoni did do work with big eyed girls, but he was imitated heavily and the San Martino pieces make up the bulk of the examples you see.

Here is a Fantoni piece using the girl motif
http://www.artvalue.com/auctionresult--fantoni-marcello-1915-italy-vase-2830556.htm
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Re: Potential Fantoni fakes from the Far East (renamed thread)

Post by agrendan on April 12th 2013, 4:16 pm

This one lookes like this



Looks like the same signature from an older reply showing 4 different items in this style. So I guess this ones a fake?
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Re: Potential Fantoni fakes from the Far East (renamed thread)

Post by MirnaMinkoff on April 12th 2013, 4:28 pm

My personal opinion is the above is a fake signature. There are tell tale signs, but it's not the sames person's handwriting, it's someone trying to imitate a signature and they did it very slowly, with stopping at times which people writing their signature almost never do. (Hurky jerky writing stops are a big red flag)

Again, just my two cents.
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Re: Potential Fantoni fakes from the Far East (renamed thread)

Post by agrendan on April 12th 2013, 4:32 pm

Well I thank you so much for your information. I didnt even know there was so much fakes around, but Im new with Fantoni. Mostly in to my home market in Sweden ;)
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Re: Potential Fantoni fakes from the Far East (renamed thread)

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